Author: Enoch (---)
Date: 09-28-10 09:15 PDT
AA has lots of Mariachis. I understand that the standard Mariachi mouthpiece is a Parduba double cup. (Harry James may have used an H.N. White King Supersonic Super 20 Silversonic trumpet with a number 5 Parduba double cup mouthpiece. -- It may have been specially made to fit a non-standard trumpet receiver tube?) Such Mouthpieces could help the Mariachi extend his range freely.
We don't know how silver the trumpets used in AA are.
The closest thing I could find to a silver trumpet is on the used trumpet market. A company called H.N. White made King brand trumpets with silver bells and silver leadpipes (the part after the receiver tube). You stick your mouthpiece into the short receiver tube. Then (hopefully) your mouthpiece extends inside the receiver and reaches very close to the leadpipe inside the receiver tube (the receiver being wider than the leadpipe).
A silver mouthpiece is made Yamaha -- see Musician's Friend on-line music dealer. I bought a Silversonic Super 20, but then found that the King S1 mouthpiece that the seller sent me (great-grandson of HN White, BTW), did not fit the receiver well. It left a huge gap to the leadpipe and wobbled. It looks like the 1964 Silversonic trumpet I got was designed for a non-standard mouthpiece taper. Also a modern Bach mouthpiece fits a bit better than the King S1, but even so, not all that well; still a wobble and too big a gap. The Yamaha solid sterling silver mouthpiece that I own also does not fit and there is not all that much extra silver in it; so I don't know if retapering it would be feasible.
It seems that with the receiver on the Silversonic Super 20 trumpet that I have, is a receiver made to bring a mouthpiece to a narrower end to match a narrower leadpipe on the Silversonic.
I don't know if the proper mouthpiece is the S 2, which I have never had, or if the 7 M that perhaps was made after 1965 by the company that bought H.N. White, would fit better. I have bought one one &M on Ebay, but it has not yet come.
Internet Data (unreliable) on King mouthpieces is as follows:
1- All of the Super-20's of that Era came with the S1 or S2 King Trumpet mouthpiece. The S1 and S2 were same design m.p.
The S2 was stamped on for the DB Symphony Horns and
the S1 for .448 bore single bore Super-20.
[ But I own a Super 20 Silversonic Double Bell Symphony and it does not have any S2 stamped on it!
Perhaps this commenter is not talking about the Silversonic (solid sterling bell model). ]
2. Is your King mouthpiece a King S2, King 7M or King 7K?
3. I checked the King 7K that came with the horn and, indeed, it sits a good 1/8 inch further in the receiver than the Bach or a couple of others that I tried. I guess King had their own idea of mouthpiece shank taper at that point in time. Still seems to be a Morse taper, but it is noticeably longer after the insertion line.
4. Looking at the last Super-20 1963 pics, on the H.N. White site.
The correct King mouthpiece would be the King S2 series. It is around a Bach 3C rim size. It is a heavy mass type m.p.
On the H.N. White King Trumpet/Cornet internet site. The pic of
the 1965 King Silver Flair, shows it has the King 7M mouthpiece.
Not sure if the 7K was available for that first make H.N. White King Silver Flair. The last year (1965) of the King H.N. White Super-20's might also have the new m.p. receiver change.
Probably would also have a issued King 7M mouthpiece. So if your Horn is a 1963-64 or earlier made 60's H.N. White King Super-20. Is a good chance it would be
the S2 mouthpiece.
The S1 or S2 stamped King m,p's are very rare. The closest made, very similar in mass and weight would be,
the Conn Selmer #3C CKB Trumpet m.p.
I have a 7C CKB, it fits my 1975 King Golden Flair, correctly like my King 7M Trumpet m.p. It plays brighter and better for lead type playing.
The King 7M m.p. will have a larger Bach 3C rim size, deeper cup, than your King 7K mouthpiece. The King 7M will play broader, more open and darker than your 7K. Since you can play a larger size m.p. You might just like, the King 7M m.p. I mentioned in one of my earlier replys, that Dillon Music has 5 used King 7M Trumpet m.p's. for sale. I would spend three more dollars and buy the $15.00 one. I would try one of those, the King 7M first choice/
3C CKB second choice. Before messing with your mouthpiece receiver.
On some of my past posts/about the Argenta Cornet.
I said some negative remarks about a 1947 S1 Super-20 I use to own. It seemed not to play just right. Now I know why, receiver not set up for modern Bach etc. m.p's. It had all the extra nice tuning features that was dropped on the late 50's and 60's Super-20 models.
Had a extra nice 1963 S1 Super-20,. . . . It had it's S1 mouthpiece and played outstanding.
5. Re a King 7M up for sale on ebay: " I don't think this was made by HN White. I really don't know for sure. My guess is around the 1970's or 80's."
6. "I have my King 7K and King 7M Trumpet mouthpieces for my King Horn. The King
7M is good for over all playing. A darker,broader sound than the King 7K M.P. The King
7K will do over all better, for Lead playing, plays brighter.
IMHO. The best sounding mouthpiece that I like the best on my King G.F. is a
Kanstul CG3 Trumpet M.P. It fits the M.P. reciever correctly and gives the Horn a well balanced timbre, in all registers with a lot of core. Have tried a
Kanstul CG Personel Trumpet M.P., but like the Kanstul CG3 better.
If you like the Stork Vacchiano
line of Trumpet Mouthpieces. They come in three V cup depth sizes. Will fit your King S.F. Trumpet's M.P. receiver correctly. Will play very nice and in tune on your Horn.
Kings's Horn's mouthpiece receiver's, taper a little differant than your other vintage and modern mouthpieces. I have read reviews of complaints, about
the Conn Selmer King Legend Trumpet having this older mouthpiece receiver. Bach Taper type modern M.P's will not fit properly on the King Trumpets/Cornets. Usually have to do the Scotch Tape Thingie to get a proper seat.
The only heavy weight megatone type M.P. that will fit correctly. Will be
the Conn Selmer CKB Trumpet M.P. I have one in a CKB 7C rim size. Will fit my horn's receiver correctly, plays much better than a Bach 7C Megatone or the King 7K Trumpet M.P. Will give my Horn a lot of Umph and power out put. If I need to play it with a loud group.
Pretty sure Conn Selmer is putting this same style/ Taper Type M.P. Receiver on
the Conn Selmer Vintage1,
Benge/1055T intermediate Silver Flair/
Student 601 King/ and sadly no longer made,
King Legend. All are issued with
the Conn Selmer 3C CKB or
Conn Selmer CKB 7C Trumpet M.P's.
7. KING M18 Trumpet Mouthpiece. Great screampiece with a huge throat! Buy It Now. $38.00.
8. Ebay Seller: "KING 600 TRUMPET KING 7M MOUTHPIECE" If you know the history of White, you will see that it [= the horn, = the MP?] was made by King Musical Instruments, Eastlake, Ohio. It's my understanding that White inscribed their instruments like this beginning in 1965. It is an early serial number of horns made there. The White trombone I have listed was made in the 1930's. The
7M mouthpiece is approx. 3.5" long, 1 1/8" diameter, 1/2" deep to center hole of bowl.
8. Hello John D,was doing some late research and ran across your Post.
I own two 1935-36 King Liberty #2 model Trumpets and
one 1953 King Liberty Balance Trumpet.
One of the #2 King Liberty Horns came with a H.N. White #42 Del Staigers Trumpet mouthpiece.
I won a H.N. White # M-11 Trumpet mouthpiece off E-Bay.
The M-11 is a Basic made soft rim and bite, around 3C Bach rim size, but deeper C cup like a Bach 7C or 5C Bach C cup. The M-11 C cup is a little more conical/V/C design like a lot of basic Conn mouthpieces and Reynolds Trumpet mouthpieces. Plays well, but to me a good average.
Now the Del Staigers #42 is by far the better mouthpiece. It feels very similar to a Bach 10 1/2C rim size, but better rim feel and a sharper inner rim edge, close to a cookie cutter bite, if you bear down on it. It has to me a comfortable rim and plenty of inner rim support, that allows a great ease of playing without having to use much mouthpiece pressure. The rim design keeps the embouchure tight without it being to tiring. The #42 Staigers Trumpet mouthpiece has a fairly deep C/V cup design, almost deep as a CG Personel V cup Trumpet mouthpiece. They sound very similar and close to same throat size and backbore size, with the CGP maybe a little bigger backbore. I like my D.S #42,
Stork 5B Vacchiano, pumped with D Backbore plays much better overall. I plan in the next month, to see if Mr. Stork can make me a #7B or 5B Stork Vacchiano with pumped cup, D Symphonic back bore and instead of the Stork rim design, alter the rim to this #42 Staigers rim design. If all goes well, will let you know. I also hope Mr. Stork can keep the older shank Taper of the King Mouthpiece. All my Storks and Bachs etc. have a little wiggle in these older H.N. White King mouthpiece recievers. The 1953 model accepts the newer mouthpieces just fine.
9. Del Steiger's 42 = HN White piece.....actually nice player, around a Bach 5 width medium V cup, 28 throat.
10. . I would like to share some recent mouthpiece info. I have been using my King
7K King m.p./ 7M King m.p. on my King Golden Flair Trumpet. Being they are the Correct original eqipment for this model King Horn. They do fit well and play well. The
7K feels rim size wise close to a Bach 10 1/2C rim. It plays the Horn more on the Brighter side and tighter.
The King 7M feels rim wise closer to a Bach 3C with a tad more direction toward a Bach 1 1/2C rim feel. The King 7M plays the Horn darker and the sound is more broader and spread out. I finally got around to buying a
Kanstul CG3 Trumpet M.P.
I had always liked the rim on the
older Del Staiger Cornet m.p. But they were to big rim wise and cup depth for me.
I am still on a Honeymoon with this
Kanstul CG3 piece.
It is looking like the CG3 might be my Goldi Locks M.P. It fits my Golden Flair M.P. receiver just right. Rim feel size is between a Bach 7C and Bach 5C. Cup is not to deep with a C/V cup design. The CG3 rim thickness is about the same(maybe a little thicker) then a Stork Vacchiano rim with just the right amount of inner rim bite for me.
That was the only complaint, I have ever had with
a Stork Vacchiano M.P. Wanted a little more inner bite. Reckon,due to playing Bach 7C and Bach 5C mouthpieces.
This CG3 has given my King Golden Flair a softer overall, nice balanced sound in all registers. I am digging it so much. I took another gamble and ordered me the Kanstul CG3 Cornet m.p. Hope the shank taper will fit properly on my 1938/1948 King Master Cornets. Will give a update, later on of the results. The Kanstul 3C,which is the CG3 in a Bach Blank. May not fit correctly, as the Kanstul CG3 m.p.
In your H.N. White King / KMI King Horn mouthpiece receivers.
Bach mouthpieces I have tried on my King Trumpets had a little wiggle. The Storks fitted correctly and so does this Kanstul CG3. Pray some of this on hands info. was helpful to some, who may wanting to try a CG3 on their Pro/Student grade King Trumpets.
11. There were no production changes during the years of 1964 to 1970. If I look into my database of photos I can tell you when the changes occurred. I usually stop my research at 1965. Edna White continued to work for King Musical Instruments as a consultant after 1965 which kept the production quality intact for several years. In 1969, Edna White passed away. The quality of the instruments manufactured by King Musical Instruments began to decline after 1971. There were several production changes to the Silver Flair model over the years following 1971. Dave...Kingtrumpetguy
12. the 1960's model King Liberty trumpets ( model # 1045) were considered advanced student models. I would not turn it into a lamp if it is an H.N.White King model. Kingtrumpetguy
13. Chris Charvat is the Great Grandson of H.N. White- the founder of the King family of brass instruments. He has created a website www.hnwhite.com/ to honor Mr. H. N. White for the instruments he developed and to shed some light on a company about which almost no one knows the real story (turn your volume down!!!)
Dave Ellis is the "King Trumpet Guy" check out his website devoted to King-H.N.White- but turn down your volume first!
14. clocking" of mouthpieces I use a vintage H.N.White #38 or a York 41 1/2 in my old King trumpets
15. I have a 1933 King Liberty (sorry Lou, I intend to keep it for now) and I just use the same mouthpiece I use on my King Super 20 Symphony or Olds Super. The Liberty is a tighter blow but has a very nice tone and good flexibility. I never measured the mouthpiece receiver but it does seem to insert right up to the insertion mark on the shank left by my other horns. In case you need to know, I play on a GR67L.
16. The liberty trumpets are quite sensitive per mouthpiece selection. I have a Liberty and a Silvertone,( Liberty with a Sterling silver bell). One of them is not at all mouthpiece sensitive and the other is so sensitive that I can only get it into tune with a vintage proprietary H,N,White mouthpiece that has a smaller than common diameter shank.
17. Ditto your comment on the mouthpiece sensitivity. I have a King Liberty from 1940 that sounds best only with a vintage King mouthpiece.
18. The most common older H.N. White mouthpieces are the
H-2s and it's still
pretty easy to find those around. The interesting thing about them is that
the shank is a little smaller so they would fit farther into the leadpipe of a non-King horn than other brands would. That would tend to give a broader sound and less of a tight focus. I've been thinking that may be one reason the earlier King horns never really caught on with the professional crowd.
With the narrower leadpipe opening, a standard mouthpiece wouldn't go in far enough, resulting in kind of a tight narrow sound. To really make them work,you had to use the King mouthpiece or at least a mouthpiece with a smaller
In the 20s and 30s, H.N White made Schmidt model horns with the piston change valve. They came standard with a set of 3 mouthpieces,
F-1, F-2, and F-3 (shades of Mendel).
They had identical rims but 3 different cup depths and they had that same narrow shank.
I don't know of any modern equivalents, but if the mouthpiece you like is the H-2, it shouldn't be too hard to pick up a couple of extras if you ask around, or keep an eye on eBay.
19. You'll notice there's not much pull on the main tuning slide on that Schmidt model King. On the earlier ones, it didn't pull at all, the crook was soldered directly to the knuckle leading into the piston valve. The one I'm working on now is from the early 20s and that main slide is not pullable. I've seen other early ones made that same way. They must have gotten some
complaints and changed it, but it strikes me that the later ones have such a short pull that it's really only useful for dumping water.
All the Kings made up until the (70s?) or so had their own unique receiver taper. I think that's probably why they never really caught on with the professionals after the 20s. They just don't play very well with a standard morse taper mouthpiece. If you have one of those old H-2 mouthpieces,
it has that King taper.
Originally, your 1928 King would have come with 3 mouthpieces, F-1, F-2, and F-3. They had the same rim, but differing cup depths. If you have the original case, it will have 3 holes for the mouthpieces. The sound really opens up with one of those mouthpieces, but the rim is a little difficult for me, small diameter and a sharp edge. It also would have come with an alternate piston to reverse the action to Bb/F, and an
Eb crook. The handguards are made from solid sterling silver. A cool outfit!
20. Wow, that must have been a really early Pelletier Schmidt. I have one made circa 1928 that has a main tuning slide + independent Bb and F slides.
I will just mention another oddity to that horn. It came stock with an Alexander taper on the mouthpipe. In fact it plays better with an Alexander
brand mouthpiece than it does with anything else-it sort of comes more alive. I wonder if all of the pre WWII HN White horns were that way or just the Pelletier Schmidt?
20. I have an old H. N. White H2 which must be somewhat older than your mouthpiece
which I use frequently on my natural horn. The other mouthpiece that I
frequently use on the natural horn is a Moosewood AH 12, the Anton Horner cup. I
have tried other H2 mouthpieces and I have found them to be different and pretty
generic. The older ones such as picutred in the Farkas book I suspect were made
to a higher level of quality control than were later ones.
I just tried my
H-2 and the
AH-12 on my normal, modern horn (Paxman 25A) and I
believe you might like the AH-12 on your Conn if you like the H-2.
21. The Toreador was a student model that H.N. White offered beginning around 1936 in its Cleveland line (check out this old ad at http://www.hnwhite.com/King/Cleveland%20… ); it may be a fine horn from its time, but it wasn't the best that H. N. White offered- that would be a King.Here's a link to a Toreador for sale: http://quality-brass.com/webstore/google…
22. Just picked up an early 60's King Super 20 DB - brass, not the Silversonic. . . . to be pushed. It's maybe a bit stuffy, but as long as I take it easy on it, it has a nice comfy sound. Not a lot of sound in my face, but plenty out front. Sweet but not huge. But if I push it, it goes totally mariachi brassy and comes unglued. I'm playing your basic beige 3C. I haven't played around with any other mp's just yet. The receiver gap on this horn is huge, like over 1/4 inch.
23. a King Symphony 20 DB Mine has the sterling bell and leadpipe. This is my main horn and I just love how it plays. But, I can push it pretty hard and takes everything I can give it. I play with
GR mouthpieces and don't know the Bach equivalents. My main 2 mouthpieces are
a very deep, GR 67 LX, and
medium deep GR 67 MX. The LX has this huge sound with lots of color but I suffer on range. The MX makes up the difference and gives me a greater range.
24. Is your King mouthpiece a King S2, King 7M or King 7K? Line it up with your Bach or Benge #3C mouthpiece.
The King's mouthpiece shank, (or it's over all length) may be longer by say about 1/8 of a inch. That would explain the 1/4 inch differance of the non King 3C m.p. I might be wrong,but by judging from a 1960's H.N. White King 602 model cornet,I use to have. The only Cornet m.p. that would fit it properly was it's King MC cornet mouthpiece.
The 7M/7K cornet m.p.'s may have fitted it. But did not have any at that time. From looking at the Pic's of the last 1960's Cornets on the H.N. White King site,and my KMI 1971 Trumpet/Cornet Catalog. Looks like the same type Cornet m.p. receiver was on all Cornet models. Found other cornet brand m.p's like Bach etc. did not fit well on that 602 model and did not play well. This might be the same problem with your DB Super-20. All of the Super-20's of that Era came with the S1 or S2 King Trumpet mouthpiece. The S1 and S2 were same design m.p.
The S2 was stamped on for the DB Symphony Horns and
the S1 for .448 bore single bore Super-20.
25. I checked the King 7K that came with the horn and, indeed, it sits a good 1/8 inch further in the receiver than the Bach or a couple of others that I tried. I guess King had their own idea of mouthpiece shank taper at that point in time. Still seems to be a Morse taper, but it is noticeably longer after the insertion line.
26. The correct King mouthpiece would be the King S2 series. It is around a Bach 3C rim size. It is a heavy mass type m.p.
On the H.N. White King Trumpet/Cornet internet site. The pic of the 1965 King Silver Flair,shows it has the King 7M mouthpiece. Not sure if the 7K was available for that first make H.N. White King Silver Flair.
The last year (1965) of the King H.N. White Super-20's might also have the new m.p. receiver change. Probably would also have a issued King 7M mouthpiece.
So if your Horn is a 1963-64 or earlier made 60's H.N. White King Super-20. Is a good chance it would be the
S2 mouthpiece. The
S1 or S2 stamped King m,p's are very rare. The closest made, very similar in mass and weight would be,
the Conn Selmer #3C CKB Trumpet m.p. I have a 7C CKB, it fits my 1975 King Golden Flair, correctly like my King 7M Trumpet m.p. It plays brighter and better for lead type playing.
The King 7M m.p. will have a larger Bach 3C rim size, deeper cup, than your King 7K mouthpiece. The King 7M will play broader,more open and darker than your 7K. Since you can play a larger size m.p. You might just like, the King 7M m.p. I mentioned in one of my earlier replys, that Dillon Music has 5 used King 7M Trumpet m.p's. for sale. I would spend three more dollars and buy the $15.00 one. I would try one of those, the King 7M first choice/3C CKB second choice. Before messing with your mouthpiece receiver.
On some of my past posts/about the Argenta Cornet. I said some negative remarks about a 1947 S1 Super-20 I use to own. It seemed not to play just right. Now I know why, receiver not set up for modern Bach etc. m.p's. It had all the extra nice tuning features that was dropped on the late 50's and 60's Super-20 models. Had a extra nice 1963 S1 Super-20, . . . It had it's S1 mouthpiece and played outstanding.
27. A deep cup, coupled with a smaller bore (say, like the old King H2) tends to produce a dark and covered tone on most horns, though again this depends on the resistance of the horn, too.
28. The Conn H2 is almost the same as the King H2 and is a fabulous all around mouthpiece. It will serve you well for many years.
29. My wife's uncle that used to play the Liberty had an extremely shallow Rudy Muck mouthpiece.
30. I got older, and my chops seem to have spread out so my old King H-2 wasn't going to work.
31. Moosewood H2 cup with 12 bore. Copy of a King H 2 cup, deep and dark beautiful sound. Yours at only 30$
32. I remember a King 7M as the stock mouthpiece that came with my first new King Silver Flair in 1966. That was definitely a trumpet mouthpiece, and I have a feeling it was the King version of the typical 7C that comes with many horns of other brands. I don't have the 7M anymore.
I have another Silver Flair that was made in 1970, but I received it without a mouthpiece. However, I imagine that a 7M was supplied as a stock mouthpiece for King horns back in those days.
Whenever I tried it, I never liked it at all, but must also say at the time I was starting lessons and was put on a Bach 1 1/4C,
33. The King trumpet and cornet mouthpieces in the fifties and sixties all had a nice contoured shape. I used to have three such mouthpieces, a King 7M, 1M, and 3M. They all played fine and were similar to Bach models in rims shape and cup depth.
34. RE King 7C: Hallo again,insertion depth is 27mm or around 1 inch (slightly more).This mouthpiece heavyer then regular Bach, it has easy high register and good endurance (I have more then one KING 7C).
35. Re Silversonic Super 20: some say this is the BEST american trumpet EVER MADE...and it very well may be.....serial # is 4073XX (1966) I believe. it is a dual bore...458/.468 . . . and has the original 7M mouthpiece.
--The above are mostly internet blurbs, quotes from various sources, mostly foros.
We don't know if the Mariachis in AA had trouble finding mouthpieces -- LOL.